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  #1  
Old 10-19-2009, 12:52 AM
Bfish Bfish is offline
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Join Date: Oct 2009
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chattooga

I have not seen this posted yet:
Paddlers Take Chattooga Issue To Federal Court
http://www.americanwhitewater.org/co.../display/full/
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  #2  
Old 10-19-2009, 08:01 AM
MBB MBB is offline
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My, how I love the Orwellian double speak in the article! They might have gained a measure of credibility for their appeal if they stated their reasons in truth. Instead, they resorted to blatant lies.

Let them sue, attorneys need the money.
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The sound of water both deepened and went up a tone. There was another bend ahead, and the river seemed to strain to get there...Around the turn it came into view, and broadened in white...sprightly and vivid. There was not the sensation of the water's raging, but rather that of its alertness and resourcefulness as it split apart at rocks,frothed lightly, corkscrewed, fluted, fell, recovered, ...and then ran out of sight...I looked for a way through...

JAMES DICKEY, DELIVERANCE
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Old 10-19-2009, 08:47 AM
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WhiteH2OPdlr WhiteH2OPdlr is offline
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MBB:

Care to point out what you seem to consider "Orwellian double speak" and "lies", and I'll be happy to discuss, being party to both sides of this debate. Or are you just foaming at the mouth and spewing?
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Old 10-19-2009, 11:29 AM
Upstream Upstream is offline
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FWIW, I believe at least one non-TU organization (name edited out as it's not on the organization's website) is planning to appeal the other way; i.e., they believe "zoning" for no boating should be continued.
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  #5  
Old 10-19-2009, 11:53 AM
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gmreeves gmreeves is offline
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So what is the American Whitewater Association complaining about in the article? Is it the fact that it has become a criminal act or the fact that they can only boat it when the water levels are such that they are able to float and anglers will rarely if ever be on the water? From what I read, it seems the only logical thing they could complain about is the criminal part. Both parties have agreed that it isn't worth boating at low water and it isn't worth fishing at boating levels.

p.s. I'm on both sides here as I have many friends that boat as well as fish. I played devil's advocate on another board last year taking up for the boaters. The angler's response was it was just a way for the American Whitewater Association to get their foot in the door and then push further. Now it seems that the anglers may have been right.
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Old 10-19-2009, 12:25 PM
milligan trout degree milligan trout degree is offline
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Quote:
Originally Posted by gmreeves View Post
So what is the American Whitewater Association complaining about in the article? Is it the fact that it has become a criminal act or the fact that they can only boat it when the water levels are such that they are able to float and anglers will rarely if ever be on the water? From what I read, it seems the only logical thing they could complain about is the criminal part. Both parties have agreed that it isn't worth boating at low water and it isn't worth fishing at boating levels.

p.s. I'm on both sides here as I have many friends that boat as well as fish. I played devil's advocate on another board last year taking up for the boaters. The angler's response was it was just a way for the American Whitewater Association to get their foot in the door and then push further. Now it seems that the anglers may have been right.
Im reading it the same way. They seem to acknowledge that boaters wont be on the water when fishermen are and fishermen wont be on the water when boaters are. Where's the problem?
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  #7  
Old 10-19-2009, 02:12 PM
MBB MBB is offline
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I will be glad to point out deception and lies. First, they state "Conservation-oriented kayackers and canoeists sought protection...." AW is not filing the appeal for conservation reasons. They are seeking access to float the river (and which I don't have a problem with in very high water conditions BTW). To characterize it as a conservation issue is misleading and deceptive.

Second, they state that "the USFS decision....makes it a Federal crime." This is also misleading. The USFS decision only continues the ban that has been in place for decades and actually allows limited boating use that was previously prohibited. The word "crime", while technically correct is deceptive in that it attempts in convey to the reader a severe penalty.

The biggest lie is that the "severe restrictions are the only of their kind in the entire United States." The National Parks also restrict boating use, particularly in Yellowstone NP. "And are intended to benefit anglers who pursue heavily stocked non-native trout" implies that the river's trout all come from a hatchery. There is a very significant population of wild trout in the upper Chattooga. This deception is repeated when the article states "The artificial fishery." I loved the line "has significant impacts including hatchery pollution..." Yes, stocking of trout in the Chatooga is destroying the river! But, it is topped off even more by "significant impacts including...near elimination of native brook trout" Native brook trout have been gone from the Chattooga for decades except in rare situations where one was washed in from a tributary. Native brook trout were probably gone after the timbering in the area (if they ever populated the river to a significant degree) and before the FS obtained the land. Clearly, the present day stockings do not eliminate native brook trout from a river they rarely exist and probably could not thrive due to water temperature.

Another deception is "significant impacts ...including user created angling trails." While the trails are used by anglers they also are used by hikers who have no interest in angling. My experience on the river is that hikers use the trails much more than fisherman. The statement indicates only anglers use the trails.

My absolute favorite Orwellian line, however is "Ironically, the USFS decions actually harms anglers across the Country" Yes, trout anglers are insane to support the ban as it actually is to our benefit to have the FS open the upper river to boat use! I am elated that AW knows more about fisherman's interests than we do. All of those TU chapters that have invested time and resources fighting to keep the ban are filled with members just too ignorant to comprehend and understand these complex issues. They should realize that they are "degrading the rights of anlgers to fish from a boat." I wonder where all of those anglers are that want to fish from a boat on the upper Chattooga are and why havent they voiced their concerns in mass?

Personally, I don't have a problem with some restricted use by paddlers during certain months and in high water. Inevitably, in our crowded world, there will be competing interests that are not reconcilable without restrictions on one group versus another. I believe the FS did a good job overall.
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The sound of water both deepened and went up a tone. There was another bend ahead, and the river seemed to strain to get there...Around the turn it came into view, and broadened in white...sprightly and vivid. There was not the sensation of the water's raging, but rather that of its alertness and resourcefulness as it split apart at rocks,frothed lightly, corkscrewed, fluted, fell, recovered, ...and then ran out of sight...I looked for a way through...

JAMES DICKEY, DELIVERANCE
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