[dukeofurl]

I thought I'd start a discussion about hooks. I use Tiemco's and Mustads most of the time. I'm really taking a liking to the daiichi hooks though. It's seems to me that the daiichi's are stronger and sharper than any other. Dai Riki's are just okay to me. They seem to have more of a tendency to bend and break than others. i've actually bent these hooks while fishing them, but then again they are extrememly cheap.
Here's my take on hooks
Standard Dries TMC 100
Comparaduns TMC 101 I like the straight eye for these best. It probably doesn't make a hill of beans difference but I like them that way.
Zebra Midges and Emergers. TMC 2488 It's really hard to beat this hook.
Nymphs and Wetflies I can go either way on these. Sometimes I like to use The standard Mustad 3906B hooks although I sometimes like to use the TMC 200r or Daiichi Equiv (Don't know the Daiichi Numbers Yet)
Streamers I like to use the Mustad Signature S71SSS (When I can afford em)

What do you like for different flies and why and when do you use other hooks?

[timbros]

I use mustad 98480 and 98482 for dries primarily
Sometimes TMC531's for dries

R70 Mustad Signature for nymphs and wets

TMC2488 for emergers, caddis pupa, etc.

And the list goes on. For general dries and nymphs I use cheap hooks. I sharpen them with a diamond file (cheap at the drug store in the finger nail polish section....sometimes I get some looks).

Fish the bottom, etc mess up hooks enough that I don't want to spend the money on super sharp hooks when I can make 'em that way myself.

Take Care,
Timbros.

[Bug Fisher]

Bass Flies -- Gamakatsu B10S mainly, although I will use others from time to time, but Gamakatsu types in general (SC-15 for trailer, etc). I like the size range of the B10S and their sharpness, compared to the TMC 8089, and the B10S seems stronger. I don't like the Mustad bass hooks, because they tend to rust when you sharpen them, and they

Dry Flies -- Mustad 94840 and TMC 100 through size 16 (however, I'm going more to the TMC here, because it has a slightly large gape and seems lighter); TMC 101 size 18 and smaller, because of the ring eye gives a better hook gape.

Wets and Nymphs -- Mustad 3906, 3906B, 9671 because they're cheap by the 100 packs and adequately sharp out of the box. (I use a lot of this hooks for production work, so saving money is a plus.) Will also use the TMC 200R for some nymphs.

Scuds, Shrimp and some Nymphs -- TMC 2487, Orvis 1639, and Mustad C49S. Usely it's the bend that determines which and what I have on hand.

Stones, Hoppers, Stimulators -- TMC 2312 which is a good, light-weight 2X long hook. Sometimes I'll use a 200R for these, but rarely.

Streamers -- Mustad 9671, 9672, 9674, 3565, TMC 300, 5262 & 5263.

Plus a bunch others for special applications. I'm not a stickler for the TMC, Mustad and Gamakatsu, as there are other quality hooks out there. These are just the ones I started tying on and basically know the equalivences of. If I have two hooks that I think are basically equal in quality for the application, then I'll usually go with the less expensive hook.

However, I do like quality hooks and materials. I learned my lesson about less expensive and poorer quality hooks with some hair bugs I tied one winter. Had a box of probably 30-40 hair bugs tied on Mustad 3366 hooks (which is an ultra cheap bait hook that's often used for spinning hair), which I happily sharpened before putting in the vise, because I was saving about 20 cents per bug. After my first smallie trip that year, I dropped a used (wet) hair bug in the box. My second trip of the year was almost a bust, because all the bugs had rusted hooks where I had taken off the finish by sharpening them (luckily, I had some bugs tied on 8089 and B10S hooks that I'd been playing with). It usually takes me 30-45 minutes to tie a hair bug. So, I have since happily sold or given away my less exspenive bass hooks, and am now more cautious about wet flies being put back into boxes. It probably costs me about 35-40 cents to tie a hair bug on a quality hook, compared to $4.95-$5.95 to buy the fly.

My smaller trout flies get put in the Fly Trap on my vest, so they're dry before getting put back in the box. That is, the ones that aren't left in trees.

I keep really cheap hooks people give me (we're talking hooks that probably came as part of an el cheapo fly tying kit way back when) to experiment with. Recently, I was playing with combining different colors of Ultra Wire, and they came in real handy.

Back to the tying desk.

Wayne

[overbrook]

Maybe its just me....but I usually let the fly I'm tying dictate which hook I use.....and I have hooks from pretty much every manufacturer...and can't say as I really have a favorite name.....I just like quality hooks....A few that were mentioned....the B10s stinger hooks for subsurface bass flies...(though I think its a bit heavy for hair bugs)...that hook is SUPER SHARP !!
the Tiemco 200R is another favorite...and yes ...there are similar hooks...but for some reason...I'm still partial to tiemco's for that model.
I like a lot of the Diachii hooks as well as the Dai-Riki....and still buy a lot of the mustad hooks in the standard dry and nymphs just because of price and usually use them on flies that I tie a lot of.....save the more expensive hooks for really nice flies

[[REal]tROUt]

Tiemcos and Daiichis are both great hook lines. They are both made in the same factory but one is chemically sharpened and one is laser sharpened. You cant go wrong with either.

Also, most Orvis hooks are Daiichi but some are Tiemco. Notice the Daiichi label, it says "sold in cooperation with the Orvis Company.

[Silvercreek]

Originally Posted by Bug Fisher

Dry Flies -- Mustad 94840 and TMC 100 through size 16 (however, I'm going more to the TMC here, because it has a slightly large gape and seems lighter); TMC 101 size 18 and smaller, because of the ring eye gives a better hook gape.


Wayne

I'm curious, can you explain why there is a better gape?

[dukeofurl]

Since Gape is the distance from the hook point to the shank.
But I think I know what he's talking about. He's talking about the distance from the hook point to the eye which I'll call "hooking capacity" This really shows up more when you're talking about beadhead nymphs. Tie a size 16 beadhead nymph on a TMC 2457 and one on a TMC 2488 of equall size and see which one provides a better hooking capacity. The 2457 will have less space for which the hook can be bitten and still have a clean hook set. Where as on the 2488 or another straight eye curved hook the bead won't be in the way necessarily.
The same would probably apply to smaller dry flies with a down eye over a straight eye.
I can see his point
Josh

[Bug Fisher]

Becuase the 101 has a ring-eye, meaning that the eye is not turned down or up, it gives more hooking capacity or overall clearance. On small hooks, having the turned-down eye can interfere with the hook's ability to set.

Basically, what Josh said.

Wayne

[Silvercreek]

Originally Posted by Bug Fisher

Becuase the 101 has a ring-eye, meaning that the eye is not turned down or up, it gives more hooking capacity or overall clearance. On small hooks, having the turned-down eye can interfere with the hook's ability to set.

Basically, what Josh said.

Wayne

I appologize for this long answer. I wanted it to be as complete as possible but that led to a very long post.

Ok, now I understand. i didn't want to assume before I gave my opinion on small hooks.

There are actually 4 factors on how to get the best "hookability" with small hooks. One is the issue of hooking gape which was brought up above. Two others are the issue of hooking angle and penetration angle (yes, it is called penetration angle setting me up for an easy joke). The fourth factor is hook offset.

What follows is my opinion but it is backed by some research and a bit of logic. If you have other views, that's OK but I'd be interested in the logic behind those opinions.

First I'd like to discuss hooking angle and penetration angle because many fly fishers think they both depend on the position of the hook eye.

Hooking angle is the angle of pull on the hook by the leader at the hook set. The common perception is that an upward angle is best to drive the point into the fish because it rotates the hook point into the fish. If this is true then an up eye hook should give the best hooking angle. However, the angle of pull is not determined by the angle of the eye. It is determined by the relationship of the rod tip to the hook eye. For example, one would think that a down eye hook would cause the angle of pull to be "down" on the hook, but the angle of pull is actually up if the rod tip is above the level of the hook when the hook set occurs. See pg. 178 of Designing Trout Flies by Gary A. Borger. So eye angle has no effect on hooking angle. Since almost all hooksets occur when the rod tip is above the fly, all hooking angles are in an upward direction.

Penetration angle is the angle of the hook point as it penetrates the flesh of the fish. A steeper angle should drive the hook deeper. When you place an up eye hook agaisnt a flat surface, it will have a steeper angle with respect to the surface than the down or straight eye hook because the eye end of the hook rests on the surface a bit closer to the hook point.

But I beleive this is a false analogy. I think any effect of the hook eye on penetration angle is very, very minor. The reason is that the penetration angle does not stay constant as the hook on flat surface illustration would sugggest. Once the hook point penetrates flesh, the hook pulls on the flesh deforming it and simultaneously the hook rotates in line with the angle of pull of the line. The eye of the hook no longer rests nicely at a 90 degree angle to the flesh as it does on the flat surface.

The angle of pull on the shank and the hook point are pretty much equal when the hook eye does not rest on a flat surface. I believe that this angle of pull drives the hook point further into the flesh at pretty much the same penetration angle which is determined by the angle of pull on the eye rather than the angle of the eye on the hook.

Hook offset is the displacement of the hook point off to the side of the centerline of the hook shank. This reduces the the blockage of the penetration of the hook point by the hook shank. So for small hooks, an offset hook will have better hookability.

This brings us back to hooking gape. Some fishers believe that a down eye hook somehow "narrows" the hooking gape and negatively affects the hooking ability of the pattern. That is not true either. The gape is the distance between the hook shank and the point and is not determined by the direction of the eye. What narrows the hooking gape is the material that is tied onto the hook at the location of the gape.

When we tie material on a hook shank, this material narrows the distance from the hook point to the hook shank, all along the shank up to the hook eye. Since there is no material on the hook eye, this distance remains constant. But with material and tying thread abutting the hook eye, the difference in distance from the hook point to the eye and the distance from the hook point to the material just behind the eye varies very little from a straight eye or down eye hook. It's pretty much a wash. So even if the distance from hook point to hook eye affects "hookability", the difference between a down eye and a straigth eye or up eye hook is minimized when the material on the shank decreases the "effective distance" all along the shank.

The best way to increase hooking in small flies use the shortest hook with the widest gape with or without a offset point. I use a Tiemco TMC 921 when I can find them. It is a 2XS 1XF hook so that you get a short hook without the wire being too heavy for a dry fly.

If we compare a size 20 TMC 101 with a size 18 TMC 921 we will find that both have the same shank length, that of a size 20 fly. The TMC 101 will have the wire guage of a 21 hook because it is 1XF and the 921 will have the wire guage of a 19 hook. The hooking gape of the TMC 101 will be a size 20 gape but the 19 will have a size 18 gape. So the TMC 921 will be stronger and will have a 2 size wider gape than the comparble length TMC 101. The 921 has good hooking characteristics and is a strong hook for its length. If you put the 921 side by side against other hooks you will find that it is consistently shorter and therefore can tie smaller patterns that the size indicates. For example, if it put a TMC 921 size 18 against a Mustad size 20, they should be the same length but the 921 will be shorter and have the advantage of a much wider gape.

I also use a Daiichi 1640 which is a 2XS hook with an offset point. It has a straight eye for those of you that still think this is important.

[Bug Fisher]

Silver -- There's nothing in your post that I would disagree with (at least, I don't think so).

When I used the word "gape" in my original post, I used it erroneously, and I knew better. I also used "ring-eye" for "straight-eye".

"Clearance" is probably a better word for what I was meaning. When the hook eye is turned-down there's not as much clearance between the hook point and the eye, whether it's a size 12 or a size 32 (on standard dry fly hook shanks). For the larger sizes, say size 16 and larger, it's not really an issue. On smaller flies, I believe it does matter, if only in my mind, and I don't really mean that jokingly, becuase sometimes it's a matter of what you have belief or confidence in.

We could also talk about the "throat" of the hook, which can play a part in hooking as well.